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August 05, 2004



Just to be clear, I don't reject earthly authority per se, but I don't see how it is legitimized. You are free to recognize any authority you choose, but thankfully the first amendment says that the government cannot recognize or constitute such an authority and it remains a matter of choice for each of us.

I still don't see how linking the Church to the Body of Christ gives you a framework for church authority. My issue is that if all of us are equal before God, then why are a Pope's pronouncements any more important than mine? Both are equally capable of true insight and error alike. Why is the orthodoxy of a hierachical church structure any more valid than the anarchy of the Gnostic churches that were violently supressed?

The only thing I interpret from this linking is that the Church is always a community united through Christ. Until we meet at the gates of heaven for our personal judgement, all the rest is empty words.


A couple of points that may matter:

1) I don't think it's accurate to say that man was originally in a state of grace, but rather that he was in communion with God. Sin ("falling short of the mark") intruded, breaking this communion. Only after the Fall does grace become relevant ("...as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness..."). It is the ransomed debtor who lives in a state of grace, not the one who owes no debt.

2. Re the question:

"My issue is that if all of us are equal before God, then why are a Pope's pronouncements any more important than mine?"

I think there's an assumption underneath that is unsupported. All are equal before God in the sense that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," for example, or in that all are free to partake of grace. This limited equality does not entail democracy, however. Note, for example, that Paul enjoined free Christians to obey church elders as well as civil authorities, and he told Christian slaves to obey their masters.



Your point one is a semantic quibble. Terms like before and after have no meaning for the Divine.

In my mind, Paul is not the best model for Christians. For me he represents the arbitrary authority of self-appointed representatives of God. I see no basis for this authority other than their own words, and they are not convincing.

Jon Husband

This is the part I don't get:

"since the church is itself the Body of Christ" ... if I understood this, maybe I'd understand the rest of this seemingly very interesting and important conversation.


This chain of ideas starts from the Last Supper which is the origin of the communion sacrament. Even without the belief that the bread and wine were tranformed in a physical as well and spiritual sense, the symbolism of a network of person to person connections built by sitting down, saying a blessing over a meal and then sharing it is very powerful. He told them that the bread and wine they shared was transformed by his Spirit and to do this in memory of Him. Perhaps Lenore can help out about how this is connected to the Church of Christ, but I don't remember anything about it from this story. The only "Church" reference that comes to mind is where He tells Peter that he is the rock the this Church will be built on. To my mind this makes Peter the cornerstone, and the members of the above sited network building stones of the Church.

My view is that before orthodoxy was imposed from above, that Christians met in someone's home, broke bread together and had wide ranging conversations telling the old stories and creating new and related ones. When a traveler came spreading the Good Word, it would start with ritual. Perhaps it would be better to call it the First Supper. You didn't need a sanctified Church official to bless the bread and wine and call the faithful together, all that is necessary is to gather for food and conversation and remind the gathered of the founding events.

This is pure wirearchy. Hierarchy was violently imposed later borrowing heavily from Roman traditions and establishing an orthodoxy pronounced and enforced by church authorities. The True Church is still the informal gatherings of friends in solidarity and community in His memory.


I think it's a semantic quibble only if you are uninterested in an answer to your question (" If man's original state is not in grace, then just where did we fall from?"), and only if you don't care for a rebuttal to your claim that there is no original sin.

Your use of "grace" to describe the original state seems destined (if I may be forgiven for my Pauline tendencies) to lead you to your foreordained conclusion that there was no original sin. My description of that state as communion leaves open the possibility of such sin ("falling short of the mark," i.e., failing to follow the rules set down to define the communion with God).

So sometimes semantics matter. Surely it is no less a semantic argument to say that your Bible doesn't talk about original sin, which seems akin to saying that it has no strictures against running a traffic light.

Re your other claim: "In my mind, Paul is not the best model for Christians. For me he represents the arbitrary authority of self-appointed representatives of God."

I was starting from a fundamental assumption that the scriptures are "God-breathed" (please, no debate on which we'll include and exclude -- people better educated than the two of us have hashed this out, and we are better off simply reading their debates). One is certainly free to pick and choose what he believes, but I think he is more likely to approximate truth if he uses standards other than "my mind" and "for me." That method seems to have produced an awful lot of muddled thinking about theology, no?

What's more, it invites an equally inarguable rejoinder, like, "in my mind, Paul is the perfectly poetic choice of apostle for a God who wanted to demonstrate to his people both that the righteousness of men is for naught, and that salvation comes from the grace of God alone."

David Weinschrott

This discussion about original sin taps into a much older discussion - that springs back at least to Augustine and Pelagius. A sucinct (well maybe not too sucinct) statment of the issues follows - their historical relevence I think is obvious:

cited from: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/full.asp?ID=605

Augustinianism. By the sin of Adam, in whom all men together sinned, sin and all the other positive punishments of Adam's sin came into the world. By it human nature has been both physically and morally corrupted. Every man brings into the world with him a nature already so corrupt, that it can do nothing but sin. The propagation of this quality of his nature is by concupiscence.

Pelagianism. By his transgression, Adam injured only himself, not his posterity. In respect to his moral nature, every man is born in precisely the same condition in which Adam was created. There is therefore no original sin.
2nd. As to FREE WILL.
Augustinianism. By Adam's transgression the Freedom of the human Will has been entirely lost. In his present corrupt state man can will and do only evil.

Pelagianism. Man's will is free. Every man has the power to will and to do good as well as the opposite. Hence it depends upon himself whether he be good or evil.
3rd. As to GRACE.
Augustinianism. If nevertheless man in his present state, wills and does good, it is merely the work of grace. It is an inward, secret, and wonderful operation of God upon man. It s a preceding as well as an accompanying work. By preceding grace, man attains faith, by which he comes to an insight of good, and by which power is given him to will the good. He needs cooperating grace for the performance of every individual good act. As man can do nothing without grace, so he can do nothing against it. It is irresistible. And as man by nature has no merit at all, no respect at all can be had to man's moral disposition, in imparting grace, but God acts according to his own free will.

Pelagianism. Although by free will, which is a gift of God, man has the capacity of willing and doing good without God's special aid, yet for the easier performance of it, God revealed the law; for the easier performance, the instruction and example of Christ aid him; and for the easier performance, even the supernatural operations of grace are imparted to him. Grace, in the most limited sense (gracious influence) is given to those" only who deserve it by the faithful employment of their own powers. But man can resist it.
Augustinianism. From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are " few " or " a small number."] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only.

Pelagianism. God's decree of election and reprobation is founded on prescience. Those of whom God foresaw that they would keep his commands, he predestinated to salvation; the others to damnation. Christ's redemption is general. But those only need his atoning death who have actually sinned. All, however, by his instruction and example, may be led to higher perfection and virtue.

These two positions hardened between the western and eastern churches - then a "middle" ground developed semi-pelagianism

1st. On the right hand, Augustinianism completed in Calvinism.
2nd. On the left hand, Pelagianism completed in Socinianism.
And 3rd. Arminianism comes between these as the system of compromises and is developed Semipelagianism.

Calvinism -> reformed churches
Arminianism -> Wesleyean tradition.

Personally - I think both could be right -- using the kind of metaphor CS Lewis uses: We see a sequence from our point of view but God sees it in different perspective. We want to nail down what we did, and what he did and were they linked. If we think they are linked you tend toward Arminianism and you have a lower view of original sin. If you think that God initiated anything you did somehow (but not sure of the linkage issue) you might tend toward Calvinism and a dominant view of original sin.

I am sort of agnostic on this old battle, but not agnostic on the power of Grace to keep me.

Lenore Ealy

Hi, David! Thanks for that helpful explication of the two sides of the coin! I've never been wholly Pelagian, but have inclined to rather like Erasmus on this matter over Luther. I agree with your concluding thoughts that there is an "existential" dimension to the way we understand these matters.

I don't care to use the term "born again," but I do believe there is a transformative moment (mine was probably about 8 years long) that changes the way we understand these matters. As long as I tried to reason out my faith, I tended toward the Arminian position. When my skepticism became so radical that it led me Montaigne-like to greater fideism, I began to tend more toward the Augustinian/Reformed view.

Before we undertake that act of submission, we struggle and fight to believe in the power and freedom of our own will. The farther I travel having freely taken that step of faith, the more I appreciate the gift of grace that made it possible. The old freedom increasingly pales in light of the new!

That paragraph above is something I articulated to myself only a matter of months ago. And it seems such a huge realization after all the time it took me to get here!


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